Curse

ogre_jd · Mar 01, 2008, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

I've said this enough it ought to be stickyed !

Its the players skill that maters not his skills!

They do when it comes to cookie-cuttering.

Savio · Mar 01, 2008, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Its the players skill that maters not his skills!

The problem with this statement is that part of being a good player is picking good skills. Player skill doesn't make a trash build any better, and a player with a trash build wouldn't be skilled in the first place.

Winterclaw · Mar 01, 2008, 06:09 AM // 06:09

If players' builds are equal, then the players' skills matter. If the builds aren't equal, then the player with the worse build has a bigger handicap, which can only partly be overcome by skill.

LightningHell · Mar 01, 2008, 07:21 AM // 07:21

One could think of your build as a palette. If you use paint unsuited to your style and/or type of art, then you wouldn't expect good results - artist skill only goes so far. If you use a single color of more suitable, or better, paint, it would probably be better than using a single color of bad/unsuitable paint, while if you have a whole spectrum of colors that you can use you can definitely paint something good.

Your build is a limiting factor on your skill, basically.

(If anybody has any complaints about the analogy...keep in mind that I don't use paint, I mainly use ink.

I was going to use martial arts as an example, but if say a Kendo 5-dan with a shinai went against an amateur with a real katana, chances are that the practicioner will actually win.)

Crom The Pale · Mar 01, 2008, 11:32 PM // 23:32

The point is if you take 2 players and give them exactly the same skills, the better player will always do better.

If you give one player a good bar and one a bad bar then the good bar will only exceed the bad bar if the players skills are equal.

Now I am working on the assumption that both are using viable builds, ie a Dslash sword warrior vs a Cleave axe warrior(not talking 1vs1 here)

The Dslash could be argued as the better of the two builds(PvE wise) but if the Cleave warrior is a better player then he will accomplish more for his party than a bad player using Dslash.

Trvth Jvstice · Mar 02, 2008, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Is cookie cutter the "only" viable option? Really, it depends on where you're playing and with whom. In PVP, I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that yes, cookie cutter is the only option. In PVE it depends on your team. If you're playing with people you know and trust to use a good skill bar and proper tactics, then again cookie cutter is the only option. The reason for that is, a well built team will be designed around a build that has been proven to work well.

However, if you're playing with a PUG, a cookie cutter skill bar may not be the best option. Most PUGs do not have the patience or competence to carefully go over each players skills and usage. Nor do they normally have the patience to go over the game plan. If you are going into a Mission, or Quest, or whatever that will very likely be failed if a certain skill (like enchant removal) isn't taken, then a smart Warrior will take that skill as long as s/he is able to function well in the slot for which they were chosen. A smart Warrior in a PUG will also notice any short comings in the team build and attempt to remedy the situation if possible. If the Monk shows their skill bar and doesn't have condition/hex removal, it might be a good idea to take a skill that will remove them if it's a heavy condition/hex area.

Once again, anyone that says a cookie cutter build is the only viable option, they are obviously only playing with a select group that they can trust to alway use the proper skills and tactics.

Flem · Mar 03, 2008, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

One could think of your build as a palette. If you use paint unsuited to your style and/or type of art, then you wouldn't expect good results - artist skill only goes so far. If you use a single color of more suitable, or better, paint, it would probably be better than using a single color of bad/unsuitable paint, while if you have a whole spectrum of colors that you can use you can definitely paint something good.

Your build is a limiting factor on your skill, basically.

(If anybody has any complaints about the analogy...keep in mind that I don't use paint, I mainly use ink.

I was going to use martial arts as an example, but if say a Kendo 5-dan with a shinai went against an amateur with a real katana, chances are that the practicioner will actually win.)

The best/most famous artists in history learn to push the boundries, think out-side the box, and always try something new.

In fact, that goes for anyone that has ever done anything great. You can never excel if your following the crowd.

Crom The Pale · Mar 04, 2008, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

The best/most famous artists in history learn to push the boundries, think out-side the box, and always try something new.

In fact, that goes for anyone that has ever done anything great. You can never excel if your following the crowd.

Actually what happens is the great creaters of the world take other people work and improve upon it.

Tieing in to your martial arts, the newest of the martial arts could be said to have evolved out of the very original martial arts, and they grew out of the study of animal movements during fights.

LightningHell · Mar 04, 2008, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

The best/most famous artists in history learn to push the boundries, think out-side the box, and always try something new.

In fact, that goes for anyone that has ever done anything great. You can never excel if your following the crowd.

Which is true. A brilliant team will make brilliant plays with an absolutely fail build. It doesn't change the fact that the brilliant would be more effective by using better builds. It's also not coincidence that a brilliant team will seldom be seen playing seriously with a gimped build without a clear purpose, as generally as people get more experienced they are more clearly and easily be able to see the quality and potential use of a build.

Please distinguish between gimping yourself and being creative.

The paint analogy certainly has some weaknesses; i.e. maybe a single color might be used for effect, i.e. Picasso's 'blue' periods, etc.

Quote:

Tieing in to your martial arts, the newest of the martial arts could be said to have evolved out of the very original martial arts, and they grew out of the study of animal movements during fights.

I may be misinformed here, but I think some martial art styles are based off something else, i.e. Zuiquan and Baguazhang.

Anyway, back to discussion...

blue.rellik · Mar 04, 2008, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

The best/most famous artists in history learn to push the boundries, think out-side the box, and always try something new.

In fact, that goes for anyone that has ever done anything great. You can never excel if your following the crowd.

Reality check. The way most of the 'hard' areas of guild wars are completed is with either the bear or tank 'n' spank and when I say 'most', I mean 95%. Those are the retards that thinks elementalists and bears are the only things that can kill

odly · Mar 04, 2008, 06:27 AM // 06:27

No coockie cutter is not the only way to do things.

Competent players can do things differently, often better.

Coockie cutter get's you into pug though, creativity doesn't.

Get some competent players, friends, guild, and the game takes on a whole new dimention.

Div · Mar 04, 2008, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

The best/most famous artists in history learn to push the boundries, think out-side the box, and always try something new.

In fact, that goes for anyone that has ever done anything great. You can never excel if your following the crowd.

If you think Einstein can came up with the idea of special relativity out of his ass without any previous physics or math background, you're a fool. If you think artists like da Vinci can paint their creative artworks before learning the basics of the trade, you're a fool.

No one is against creativity. People are simply against idiots who think they're creative when they have little clue on the basics of what they're doing.

And I challenge you to post a build that you have created that is both effective and original. You make original build creation sound so easy in your posts, so I'd really like to see what you have done. From what I've seen, you still can't tell the difference between playing a gimp build and playing a creative build.

I pose yet another question for you. If you were to choose between a shit player with a shit bar and a shit player with a good bar, what would you choose?

masta_yoda · Mar 04, 2008, 08:51 AM // 08:51

a shit player with a good bar ofc

Flem · Mar 04, 2008, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Actually what happens is the great creaters of the world take other people work and improve upon it.

Tieing in to your martial arts, the newest of the martial arts could be said to have evolved out of the very original martial arts, and they grew out of the study of animal movements during fights.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

If you think Einstein can came up with the idea of special relativity out of his ass without any previous physics or math background, you're a fool. If you think artists like da Vinci can paint their creative artworks before learning the basics of the trade, you're a fool.

No one is against creativity. People are simply against idiots who think they're creative when they have little clue on the basics of what they're doing.

And I challenge you to post a build that you have created that is both effective and original. You make original build creation sound so easy in your posts, so I'd really like to see what you have done. From what I've seen, you still can't tell the difference between playing a gimp build and playing a creative build.

I pose yet another question for you. If you were to choose between a shit player with a shit bar and a shit player with a good bar, what would you choose?

I'm not telling anyone to make new skills here. I'm not saying develop a game from scratch. The skills are laid out for us, I'm saying utilize them.

I've never claimed to be a better player then anyone, or claimed to have all the answers. Posting a build that shows creativity would be easy though, because most builds start with creativity. It's the running into the ground of about 1 or 2 certain ones that makes the whole game boring and reguritated.

I've already seen the after math of posting builds anyway. There is no winning here. If I don't post the pre-approved skills then it's deemed worthless. Just like your opinions.

And what kind of question is that last one? Who decides what a shit bar/player is? You guys keep throwing around the words "bad" and "good". No matter how many times you say them, it's still you opinion, not fact.

LightningHell · Mar 04, 2008, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Of course, I can't say what a 'good' player is; however, given that player A does better at position C than player B over multiple instances to reduce chance, I think it's pretty safe to say that player A is better at position C than player B. As I said in the other thread, it'd be pretty dumb to call me as being better at Ranger than Yue.

And generally, as a player grows in experience - especially competitively, as in PvE there is no real driving force to improve builds except to build for a specific instance then revert back - they realize what a build of their position generally needs, and hence realize that some skills are best used for their position.

As a monk, I 'know' that for example, going into Communing for Shelter isn't worth it. Referencing another game, I 'know' that spamming Mountain Giants in Warcraft III doesn't work out.

Quote:

I pose yet another question for you. If you were to choose between a shit player with a shit bar and a shit player with a good bar, what would you choose?

I'm not telling anyone to make new skills here. I'm not saying develop a game from scratch. The skills are laid out for us, I'm saying utilize them.

And your answer does not even relate to his question. Would you rather have a Flare warrior than a template Shock Axe, or a Hundred Blades warrior instead of a Dragon Slash one?

Quote:

I've never claimed to be a better player then anyone, or claimed to have all the answers. Posting a build that shows creativity would be easy though, because most builds start with creativity. It's the running into the ground of about 1 or 2 certain ones that makes the whole game boring and reguritated.

Problem with this is most ideas are already tried, with what? Nearing 3 years? There is only a major reshuffle in builds right after new chapters (and perhaps some major balances, although obviously they don't have such a large effect as chapters), and even then usually builds come out relatively quickly. You're underestimating the intelligence of some buildmakers.

The only exception I can think of is back early some months (don't remember exactly) after start of Guild Wars (NOTE, THE START), when Korean players ran Warriors in higher level play. And that was only because it was a major paradigm shift from the accepted norm that it became so (relatively) hard to find/adapt to, and also because the game was still in its infancy.

Quote:

I've already seen the after math of posting builds anyway. There is no winning here. If I don't post the pre-approved skills then it's deemed worthless. Just like your opinions.

...I really have nothing to say. It's the poster's job to defend his own build, and when he can't, isn't that a sign that the build is inferior (unless somebody else speaks in defense)?

Edited.

Div · Mar 04, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

And your answer does not even relate to his question. Would you rather have a Flare warrior than a template Shock Axe, or a Hundred Blades warrior instead of a Dragon Slash one?

Because he can't. If he doesn't avoid that question his entire argument is proven false.

He also makes no sense with the whole "creating new skills" argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

I've already seen the after math of posting builds anyway. There is no winning here. If I don't post the pre-approved skills then it's deemed worthless. Just like your opinions.

Maybe it's because your builds are complete shit? I've posted builds here, Racthoh has posted builds, Ensign has posted builds, all new and unique that aren't pre-approved. But guess what? They later become approved because people test them and realize they're decent, and not complete trash.

Flem · Mar 04, 2008, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Of course, I can't say what a 'good' player is; however, given that player A does better at position C than player B over multiple instances to reduce chance, I think it's pretty safe to say that player A is better at position C than player B. As I said in the other thread, it'd be pretty dumb to call me as being better at Ranger than Yue.

And generally, as a player grows in experience - especially competitively, as in PvE there is no real driving force to improve builds except to build for a specific instance then revert back - they realize what a build of their position generally needs, and hence realize that some skills are best used for their position.

As a monk, I 'know' that for example, going into Communing for Shelter isn't worth it. Referencing another game, I 'know' that spamming Mountain Giants in Warcraft III doesn't work out.

You may think you know something, until someone comes along of figures out how to manipulate the skills to work for them better. You can settle if you want. Your call.

Quote:

And your answer does not even relate to his question. Would you rather have a Flare warrior than a template Shock Axe, or a Hundred Blades warrior instead of a Dragon Slash one?

That's cute, it really is...but that's the the question I was responding too. Taking a response out of context is really digging at the bottom of the barrel.

[/QUOTE]
Problem with this is most ideas are already tried, with what? Nearing 3 years? There is only a major reshuffle in builds right after new chapters (and perhaps some major balances, although obviously they don't have such a large effect as chapters), and even then usually builds come out relatively quickly. You're underestimating the intelligence of some buildmakers.

The only exception I can think of is back early some months (don't remember exactly) after start of Guild Wars (NOTE, THE START), when Korean players ran Warriors in higher level play. And that was only because it was a major paradigm shift from the accepted norm that it became so (relatively) hard to find/adapt to, and also because the game was still in its infancy.[/QUOTE]

So, you can't think of better ways to run the skills, thats fine. Just stop telling all the new players that it's impossible.

[/QUOTE]
...I really have nothing to say. It's the poster's job to defend his own build, and when he can't, isn't that a sign that the build is inferior (unless somebody else speaks in defense)?

Edited. [/QUOTE]

I have posted preliminary builds before and defended them for pages and pages, with people that choose to flame because I chose different skills then the build they use. Only a small small handful of people had conversation with me about the build and offered constuctive criticism. At the beginning I stated that the build was not perfect but seemed to work effectively in it's assigned medium (specifically AB, if I remember right). The helpful people were not any of the mega posters that are the normal flamers. It's the same guys every time. No surprise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Because he can't. If he doesn't avoid that question his entire argument is proven false.

He also makes no sense with the whole "creating new skills" argument.

You mis-quoted me. It's hard to understand simple things when you just skim looking for things to flame about.

Quote:

Maybe it's because your builds are complete shit? I've posted builds here, Racthoh has posted builds, Ensign has posted builds, all new and unique that aren't pre-approved. But guess what? They later become approved because people test them and realize they're decent, and not complete trash.

Oh, so your builds were approved by the same people that always defend your arguments, also. So meaningful. So deep.

If only I had a dollar every time you little boys claimed your opinion was fact, I'd be rich.

Savio · Mar 04, 2008, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

So, you can't think of better ways to run the skills, thats fine. Just stop telling all the new players that it's impossible.

Stop suggesting that a new player will come up with a spectacular build that no one has ever thought of before. Innovative, effective builds don't come from the bottom of the barrel.

Quote:

I have posted preliminary builds before and defended them for pages and pages, with people that choose to flame because I chose different skills then the build they use. Only a small small handful of people had conversation with me about the build and offered constuctive criticism. At the beginning I stated that the build was not perfect but seemed to work effectively in it's assigned medium (specifically AB, if I remember right). The helpful people were not any of the mega posters that are the normal flamers. It's the same guys every time. No surprise.

All you've posted was a shitty AB warrior build and didn't defend it at all except to say "it worked in AB."

Quote:

If only I had a dollar every time you little boys claimed your opinion was fact, I'd be rich.

Builds being good or bad isn't a matter of opinion. You only call our arguments opinions so you don't have to go through the trouble of actually disproving them, which you can't.

Flem · Mar 04, 2008, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Stop suggesting that a new player will come up with a spectacular build that no one has ever thought of before. Innovative, effective builds don't come from the bottom of the barrel.

Stop making it like they can't

Quote:

All you've posted was a shitty AB warrior build and didn't defend it at all except to say "it worked in AB."

Starting off with a flame and an opinion, awesome. lol, and yea I did say it worked it AB....because it did.... um? What can't you understand with that? IT WAS MADE FOR AB AND IT WORKED IN AB! Holy crap. Read, please. I also never claimed it was leet either. It was something I had made the night before. Everyone started flaming me like 4th graders. Then the argument got off topic, like always, and you guys started telling me that I shouldn't worry about people countering all my skills... That's so nieve.

Quote:

Builds being good or bad isn't a matter of opinion. You only call our arguments opinions so you don't have to go through the trouble of actually disproving them, which you can't.

Good and Bad are opinions, sorry. Unless your the GW judge of skill/player worth, what you say as exactly as much weight as anyone else. Your ego is clouding your responses.

Dr Strangelove · Mar 04, 2008, 07:17 PM // 19:17

1) Some skills ("good) are more powerful than other skills ("bad"), providing bigger damage/effective healing/shutdown

2) Some skills synergize better with each other, providing bigger numbers on damage/effective healing/shutdown. Builds that produce bigger numbers in these categories are "good", builds that don't are "bad"

3)Most players want "good" builds.

So, naturally, this forum helps people figure out which builds are good and bad, and how to improve them. This isn't happy sunshine lollipop land where all builds are perfect and beautiful, some things are better than others.

By your logic, it seems that anyone who posts a new build should be glorified by everyone here for making something new, no matter how much it sucks. Do you think, maybe, constructive criticism might be a little more helpful?